Diversity in Practice: Denica Gordon-Mandel and Christina Johnson on Having “The Talk” with Children of Color

In part two of this Diversity in Practice podcast series on speaking to kids about race, we continue our conversation with the founders of Raising Compassionate Leaders, Denica Gordon-Mandel and Christina Johnson. In this session, the speakers discuss the unnerving situation of having to have “The Talk” with young children of color about the possibility of being singled out, simply because of the color of their skin.

Transcript

Speaker: Welcome to MoFo Perspectives, a podcast by Morrison & Foerster, where we share the perspectives of our clients, colleagues, subject matter experts, and lawyers.

Natalie Kernisant: One of the things I promised myself when I took on the role of Director of Diversity and Inclusion at MoFo a few years ago, and that I recommitted to when we launched this podcast just a few weeks ago, was to always make room for and acknowledge the often overlooked perspectives of marginalized communities. I think the most important thing a D&I professional can do is to try to highlight, represent, and bring to the table the experiences and voices of marginalized professionals. If organizations want to move the needle, it is critically important that they provide this space to talk about the unique experiences, concerns, and issues of their diverse colleagues. My hope is that through active listening, not only might our diverse colleagues start feeling more sincerely the inclusion our organizations pledge to encourage, but that our allies might also begin feeling empowered to combat bias and to create more equity and equality in our world. I say all that to say that, from time to time, providing that space requires us to create short follow-up sessions to the week’s podcast. The follow up sessions focus more directly on the experiences of our diverse colleagues and friends. As a follow up to this week’s episode on talking to our kids about race, I continue my conversation with Denica and Christina, the founders of Raising Compassionate Leaders.

Natalie Kernisant: As a black woman and a new mom to a black boy, the most terrifying and unnerving thing I’ve had to do is prepare myself for what many in our community call the talk, right? The talk is the conversation black parents must have with our children at shockingly young ages about the possibility of being the subject of violent attacks, whether physical or psychological, simply because of the color of our skin. And it’s something black parents have to do as a matter of necessity for as long as there have been black parents in this country. So, I wonder if you guys could speak to if and how the conversations you have with black parents about talking to children about race differ from those conversations that you have with white parents.

Christina Johnson: No, absolutely. I think you spoke on something that’s really important right now, and it is about the different conversations. And as a mother of a five-year-old daughter, I’ve had to have this conversation when she was four, where I had to explain to her that whether it’s her skin or her hair, that it didn’t mean that she was any less beautiful or smart. Although she, pretty early on, actually, she shared with me she wanted blonde hair and wanted it to be straight. And that was beautiful to her because that’s what all the princesses had. So representation definitely matters, but also having these conversations about people not being kind to them sometimes, that there’s amazing people in the world that will love them, embrace them, but there’s sometimes where they’ll encounter people that aren’t kind. And so I think the conversation for parents of these children is different where it’s more of a protective mode. And I’d say for the conversation with white parents, the ones that we’ve spoken to recently is we’re asking those parents to help their children look outside of themselves. We’re asking them to see commonality with children that don’t look like them. And we’re asking them to nurture this thought process of embracing people and loving them regardless of their skin tone or their features.

Denica Gordon-Mandel: Yes. I have a son that is 17 years old and Ahmaud Arbery was—had a huge impact on him. And what—you know, going back to something Natalie said, is that what I have done, and what I think has been helpful is to actually have a lot of small talks, right? That it’s not just one big talk, but to understand, to know your child, where your child is developmentally. And when you hear something or see something, to use it as an opportunity to engage in a conversation, right? Kids come home with questions, being willing to have hard conversations with them, like Christina mentioned. My son, he’s a runner. And so, we had a conversation about Ahmaud Arbery and how he realized that he didn’t do anything, right? That, and we talked about how sometimes it’s out of your control that sometimes these things happen, even if you did nothing.

Denica Gordon-Mandel: And that police officers or people may have preconceived notions, and specifically, when it comes to dealing with law enforcement, we have talked about how, while it may be demeaning to submit, that sometimes you have to just comply, and he has said to me, my son, that this is what I have to do to survive. And while he knows that not all police officers are bad, the reality is police oftentimes have implicit biases and they are responding to a situation based on those biases and this conditioning of fear.

Christina Johnson: And Denica, you said something that’s critical that I want to revisit, which is sometimes complying isn’t enough. There was a video on YouTube that shared how black parents have this early conversation with their children that was super powerful. And what they realize is sometimes, we teach our children early on to comply. I would say most parents, whether their—before their kids are even old enough to drive—describe to them how they should respond and interface with the police officer once they’re stopped. And so I think that we have these conversations about complying, but the unfortunate part about this scenario is, as Danica mentioned, sometimes complying will not be enough, as what we’ve seen in the recent media.

Natalie Kernisant: Yeah. Which creates a completely different reality, I think, for black parents as they navigate these conversations with their children, right. That the fear that we talked about before, that’s a very, very real and salient part of the conversations that they’re having with their children and in ways that are much deeper than the fear of saying the wrong thing or offending someone, but really the fear of your child being harmed. And I think that that colors conversations with children that parents are having with black children tremendously. It creates a different sort of tone.

Denica Gordon-Mandel: So true.

Natalie Kernisant: So, that actually brings me to another question I have for you. Staying sort of in the same vein of conversation, there’s another strange predicament I often find black parents in, particularly in this moment. It’s that role of consulting, advising, comforting, and even educating our white friends, colleagues, and allies about how to have these conversations with their children, right? And although it’s a role I take on willingly for friends and colleagues and I think it’s incredible work, right? I also think about how people of color have had to go about navigating these waters with their own children, with little assistance, guidance, or even consideration for centuries, literally. And I find myself having to contend personally with feelings of resentment from time to time. This is an example of the privilege associated with whiteness that is rarely talked about. And of course, many of us are part of diverse communities and we have to have these conversations. These conversations are inevitable living in communities. So what advice do you guys have for all parents when it comes to talking about these issues with other parents across difference and dealing with all these various conflicting emotions?

Denica Gordon-Mandel: Okay. That was—definitely, yeah—that is deep and a hard one. I completely understand the frustration and sadness that black, indigenous, and people of color feel, this burden of having to, yet again, explain that racism exists, or be shocked, right? That, really, you still don’t know or understand that there are issues of inequality? I go to Audre Lorde, she’s a black feminist thought leader and who’s phenomenal. And she talks about how that we—of black, indigenous, and people of color—have to do our own work. And sometimes doing that work is about figuring out how we have somehow been or benefited from being a part of the majority. And I know, like—take a pause—that majority being heterosexual, male, or a certain education level, maybe economically benefited without a disability, and doing that work by identifying how we have in some way benefited.

Denica Gordon-Mandel: Maybe we haven’t realized our own blind spots. And through that work, we can have a moment of reflection and grow and then sort of garner that strength to show up for others. On a practical level, I would say that we, as black people, we need support, find people, safe places to ventilate, and a lot of self-care, whatever that means for you. And last, I would say that it is okay and very necessary to point a potential ally in the right direction and say: I appreciate you on this journey. I really do. But the next step is for you—you to do that work yourself.

Christina Johnson: No, absolutely. And so we obviously encourage to have those conversations because I think, although they’re exhausting, we’ll all be better from them. And I think it’s really important to hear from people that you respect and have a relationship with. I think that the message is super powerful and there’s also existing organizations to help people continue this journey. And so there’s—be the bridge that helps facilitate some of these dynamics, as well as Michigan intergroup dialogue. And so it helps parents gain perspective and also helps parent a child dialogue. And what we have within our RCL committed to doing is providing parents with this information. So I think, yeah, have the initial conversation, but definitely encourage them to continue on this journey and don’t let it stop at just one conversation. I think it’s a commitment to a lifelong journey, for sure.

Natalie Kernisant: Yeah. We often talk about that. It’s a marathon and not a sprint. Resilience is really, really important.

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